The following is a portion of what turned out to be a rather lengthy reply to my good buddy Sam in a comment from a previous post.
Sam?well said. I agree with everything you?ve written. You?ve done an excellent job of describing the gospel from the perspective of what God provides individuals through the gospel. But I think there?s still more that can be said from a different perspective. I believe God is concerned with more than giving individuals forgiveness, hope, and purpose. He?s also concerned about summing up all the fragments of his broken creation in Jesus Christ. He?s concerned with creating a people for himself who serve as a sign and foretaste of the reign of God, which is breaking into this world. The gospel reconciles us to God. It also brings together different groups and types of people and puts them into one body and calls them the family of God. For Paul, the fact that Jews and Gentiles could be united in Christ is to be taken as a sign to the world that the gospel is true.
The danger with the shopping mall approach to church is that by catering first to the needs of the individual by providing highly specialized experiences for kids, students, adults, moderns, postmoderns, or whatever, we actually could be reinforcing the very consumer-driven mentality that keeps shopping malls in business. If a church starts to resemble the shopping mall too much, then it will be virtually impossible for the average attender/member to think of the gospel as anything other than God?s plan for meeting my individual needs.
The fact that when most families arrive at a church building they almost immediately split up and go their separate ways, just like they do at the mall, is becoming quite a concern for me. It?s what is happening at Garnett and I?m not sure I like the fruit it?s bearing. From what I can tell, it’s producing a gathering (not necessarily a community) of individual Christians who expect the “church” to live up to their consumer driven expectations, which just happen to be conditioned by-you guessed it-the shopping mall.
Telling Stories, Asking Questions, Learning Lessons
Good response as always, Wade.
I think the difference we’re having here is that my church doesn;t see the weekend service as the community/fellowship point. Wee see it as a gathering in which we have a unique opporunity to bring non-believing frineds into a place where the gospel is communicated in relevant ways.
Small groups are where we find community and fellowship. It’s impossible in almost any church to find true community and fellowship on a Sunday morning with consistency.
I’ve got more thoughts, but I need to keep feeding my boys breakfast – I’ll reconnect in a little while.
Old preacher’s story: A visiting family left church complaining about it. Dad said the sermon was too long. Mom said the music wasn’t very inspiring. Older sis said it was all boring. Little brother said, “Well, what did you expect for a dollar?”
Wade,
This is good stuff you are talking about. Needed stuff. Can I offer an observation or two? It seems, in all the discussion about “church”, we mainly have our minds focused on what happens on Sunday morning between the hours of 10:00 and noon and possibly Wednesday night from 7:00 to 8:00. This “shopping mall” concept describes our assemblies and people’s expectations when they come together. As I see it, “church” is more about my life away from the assembly than it is at the assembly. My conforming to the cross, my missional work, my living sacrifice is rooted in every waking moment of every day of my life. I truly believe God is more concerned with what happens Monday thru Saturday than with what happens on Sunday. I believe God gave us assemblies for the very reason you are questioning, to meet deep spiritual, emotional and physical needs that we come to have during a week long, exhaustive effort of living for Christ. Preaching, teaching, singing, communing, hugging, praying, eating, loving on each other, those are some of my greatest needs come Sunday. I believe God wisely designed the assembly to meet needs of His people who have given themselves to becoming living sacrifices for Him.
Our problem is we expect to build community based upon our Sunday meetings. It can’t and won’t happen until we get community building away from Sunday and into the rest of the week. There’s no doubt that the early church spent more time together away from the assembly than at it. Until we learn to do that, we will struggle. And if someone can figure out how to do it in this culture, please call me pronto!
Brad,
You beat to much of what I wanted to say. Community isn’t what happens in our services, it’s what happens outside.
Sadly, there are far too may people who have more “community” with their local Starbucks barista than with someone from their church.
While I agree with a lot of what has been said here and feel this is an urgent conversation the church needs to be having, I believe ‘one’ of the things we are missing in order to form communities instead of gatherings is precisily what has been demoted in this conversation…. our time together on Sunday. Now understand, this is coming from a guy who took his church through an experiment last January where we met together EVERY day of the week. Talk about together…sheeeewww! I fully agree we need more time together outside of our “services” but….
It is my belief that we have commercialized our worship so much that it has lost its transformative power, meaning, emphasis, and maybe even its gospel…and has taken us to a state to which we really don’t know why we do the things we do (other than the bible tells us to and our tradition shows us to). Some see Sundays as “public” worship that is (in essence) the biggest opportunity the church puts on to evangelize to others – thus the ‘shopping mall mentality’. I see this as drastically wrong. Sunday is about “private” worship (not one on one isolationist, but rather privately corprate). It is the time when those in Christ come to commune and break open the word and experience together the mystery of Christ. If evangelism happens fine, but it is (and should be) at best a secondary effect.
Maybe it would do us good to look to the orthodox east. I think there you will find churches very similiar to us in many ways (understand though, drastically different in style), yet they are not prone to the same failings and shopping mall sell-outs as we are. I believe you will also find the mystery and experience of Christ in the formation of community alive and well.
Just some thoughts…..
Well put, Russ. This is a timely topic for discussion. The shopping mall approach to “doing church” deeply concerns me.
I agree with Wade that it often smacks of catering to the individual whims and preferences of the greatest number of people, and may appear to be just one more set of options in an already consumer-mad culture. The problem is that there is simply no end to it, as in all marketing endevors. We find ourselves on a relentless treadmill, every looking for the newest angle to meet the specialized needs f the membership, ever tweaking the assemblies and classes in a search for just the right mix. Mind you, I am not saying the church should not be attentive to these needs, for the church model that speaks to me most is that of a hospital, where we find spiritual healing. The real success of this approach, if any, cannot be measured in numbers, and I fear often leads to a spiritual deadend. Friends I know who are currently looking for a new church home approach their choices in the same way one would purchase a new car, weighing all the options, trying to find the best fit for their needs. And I have recently done the exact same thing myself! While this is comfortable, I can say that it is spiritually healthy.
I agree with Brad that our Life in Christ must have “legs” outside the Sunday assembly, that our worship experience must be transformative for us Monday through Saturday. But I agree with Russ’ point in that this emphasis on our daily walk cannot in any way denigrate our Sunday worship. For the community, this “common-unity” begins at the Table, on Sunday. In my view, the Table is the whole purpose of our Sunday assembly, and without this as the basis and fount of our spiritual community our spiritual witness is stunted for the rest of the week.
I also agree with Russ’ advice about the “orthodox east.” As someone with one foot still in the Churches of Christ and one foot in the Orthodox Church, I can attest to the impact of their approach. The idea of patterning worship to “meet the needs” of the congregants is completely foreign to them. And yet, healing is found in the partaking of the sacraments. A Protestant-style evangelistic outreach service would be just as incomprehensible, as their Liturgies are completely geared towards worshipping at the Throne of Heaven. Yet, attending a Divine Liturgy, which has been largely unchanged for 1600 years, will literally “blow you away” with its beauty, majesty, depth and reverence, and to this observer, anyway, ends up being one of the most evangelistic things going.
Again, great discussion topic and comments!
OOPS–small but crucial typo in my previous post. Make that read “I canNOT say that it is spiritually healthy.
I’ve been out of the office all day. Great responses from one and all. The larger issue I’m grappling with is if the Church is called to be the Body of Christ, the Spirit-empowered presence of Jesus sent into the world to carry on and further implement the Kingdom of God project he initiated in his ministry, then to what degree are our current structures and practices encouraging or hindering us from living up to our identity and carrying out our mission?
So, is the Church and the Kingdom of God the same thing?
No–the church is the community created by the reign (kingdom) of God. In the gospels, the kingdom is described more in terms of activity than as a place. The church is a significant piece of evidence (but not the only evidence) pointing to the presence of the kingdom of God (God’s reigning activity) in this world.
Good clarification, and I agree with you. This is a launching point for the continued dialogue. I’ll chat more after I think for a while. I’ve reached my deep thought quota for the day 🙂
Like you said Wade. Sunday is the gathering and the rest of the week we scatter. If we aren’t doing that effectivley then there must be something wrong with the “Gathering”
Remember the dead sea analogy and the sponge analogy, is that what we are becoming or are we becoming everything God wants our church to be. If not then why?
Just something I’ve been thinking about.
While I agree with most of what has been said here, I do want to take some issue with the whole “Orthodox is the way to go” mentality…
I cannot tell you how many times I’ve heard someone say something like, “We just need to recite the Apostle’s Creed more, or the Nicean Creed more” as if doing those types of things are magically going to make us “more spiritual”.
Have you ever really gotten to know someone who does those things week in and week out? For the average Catholic or Orthodox churchgoer, these exercises become simply a repetitious cycle of boring blahhhhh. There is no transformation, no deepening of their souls.
Why? Because they do the same thing over and over and over until it means nothing to them! Now, could there be some good in practicing some of these ancient forms of liturgy and stuff? ABSOLUTELY! But, I don’t know that they need to become a regular, monotonous part of our assemblies, for they would become more of what we already have.
As someone who does not regularly partake in that type of worship, I am deeply moved by it when I do. But, if I did it all the time, it would become as meaningless as many of the things we already do today to me. Going through the motions… ya know?
What we need is to move away from the spectator element of worship altogether. We need community. That will take on many forms, not just an orthodox one. Remember that to the first church, liturgy was as foreign to them as the “seeker sensitive” approach is to the Orthodox church. The answer is not found in one particular way of “doing church”. It is found when we move beyond the music, beyond the liturgy, beyond the preaching, and become disciples.
How about moving to a more “house to house” approach? This would cause many of us professional ministers to have to find other forms of employment, but this would encourage more of a priesthood of all believers.
Meet in separate homes for all but one Sunday of the month, and then come together in rented space (or outside if it’s nice), for a larger gathering. This would cause people to have to take ownership in what is going on. Share ministries amongst the house churches, and let the majority of the offering go to do ministry in the community, instead of paying the light bill or mortgage on a huge building that only gets used 2 or 3 times a week… not to mention building insurance and what-not
Sure, you’d have SOME overhead costs, but they would be minimalized. This type of approach would be so appealing to me, I know… you could even still have the formalized liturgy, if that is what your house church believed was best….
Of course, I’m not suggesting that the “House Church” is the only answer or even the answer… My overriding suggestion is that we need authentic disciples, and to make that happen, we have to quit worrying about being entertaining, witty, or anything else on Sunday morning. I’m not say be boring… but the focus of our gatherings must be solely to glorify God, not entertain the butts in the seats. And then, that what we do in that assembly fills the streets outside. Worship from day to day…. Romans 12 kind of disciples. That’s what we need.
I guess I need to figure out what I would do to support my family, being a paid preacher and all… *lol*
Beneath His Mercy,
Brian Burkett
Brian, I couldn’t agree more with you in your concluding remarks, about being “authentic disciples,” and “quit worrying about being entertaining, witty, or anything else on Sunday morning,” gathering “solely to glorify God.” Absolutely, dead-on! I think that is what we are all seeking.
But I do have to respectfully disagree with your observations regarding liturgical worship. My comments were made in response to Russ’ comments about the “orthodox east,” and in the context of an alternative to the shopping mall approach to worship. I used to hold the same views you expressed–that liturgical worship was repetitious and monotonous, etc. I’m sure there are many Catholic and Orthodox worshippers who do just “go through the motions.” But that is not a valid criticism of liturgical worship, for it equally applies to many of us. And there is nothing wrong with repetition. If you think about, even the most non-liturgical churches use repetition. We all do it. The problem is with vain repetition.
My experience with liturgical worship has been anything but monotonous, repetitious and meaningless. I recite the Nicene Creed daily, and it only becomes deeper and more meaningful as time goes on. And I can say that it has been transformative for me.
Finally, while this is probably not the forum to get into it, I do take issue with the statement that liturgy was foreign to the early church. In my view, that is where our restorationist heritage has really missed the mark. For the early church was definitely liturgical. The basic elements of the liturgy are right there in Acts 2:42, and the writings of the early 1st and 2nd century Christians leave no doubt. I’m afraid our Protestant presuppositions have done us a disservice in this area.
When Russ mentioned the “Orthodox East” I thought he was saying we should be doing it the way they do it Nashville.
Good stuff Wade! HA!
I didn’t mean to start a tangent on this blog topic; I just simply wanted to say there are some other “structures and practices” that could assist us in becoming more of a community and living up to our identity and our missional calling…which is the question you are asking. For me, the discussion starts at The Table. If our time spent together is nothing more than a concert, a monologue performance, and a funeral snack…then how is that going transform us into becoming and living up to our identity and community. Who cares about the times we spend together during the week IF it is being driven by a shallow worship before GOD around the Table in which holiness has been lost. I believe that is where this conversation should start….around holiness.
My suggestion was maybe look elsewhere for help….maybe a bit farther than Nashville (HA!)…but understand in no way am I saying “This is the thing, or way, or answer…or let’s scrap all that we do.” I am just one who thinks the distant past looks mightier than the coming present; and some of those repetitive practices in prayer and discipline have uncovered a newness to the holiness of GOD.
Perhaps the creator of quarks, distant galaxies (parallel universes?), electrons, and the very substance on Jupiter’s moons is not quite as concerned about what Christians do when they get together. (What does the Bible say about “worship services” anyway?)
My response, after thinking about it for a while, would have been too long to post here. So I just put it on a post on my blog: The Postulant’s Screed.
I know I am jumping in late but here goes…
The guys at ChurchMarketingsucks.com found an article which was basically a review of a non-church goer’s trip to a megachurch. Basically, the reviewer felt like she was going to a mall.
What the guys at Church Marketing Sucks point out and what resonated with me as I read the article was
“…the perspective alone is what’s interesting. In a sense, this is what church looks like to the ousider. One of the hardest things for churches to do is understand what it’s like for a newcomer.”
Our place, is by no means a megachurch, but my concern as a result of reading the article and this post and string of replies is this: What do newcomers think, see and feel when they enter our doors for the first time? Do they see another subset of the consumers gobbling up their particular favorite flavor? Or do they see the hands of Christ reaching out to welcome them wherever they might be coming from?
TK,
Good stuff. I think though, that others who are posting are viewing our weekend worship services as a connection point for believers in fellowship, worship, and the Word – and that outreach is done during the week. Am I anywhere close on this?
Okay sorry Sam I never really got back with you. The mall church can be just as effective if they are in the process of developing disciples. For that matter any church can be effective if they are disciples following Jesus. Thought when you give money to a Tsunami Relief Effort do you give money to the one that spends 50% on administration or do you give to the one who spends 7%, if there money still ends up in the same hands.
There probably is a parable here in regards to talents but one of the most effective churches I have seen in discipling never owned any building but purchased a residence across from a school and a park. They believed they could further the cause of Christ if they developed one on one relationships within the community and use their talents and their gifts to further the kingdom. They saw people come to Christ, grow in their walk with the Lord and then go and produce in other areas of the country.
The church never grew much over the 150 members but I was surprised by the amount of ministry they did for Jesus in their community.
On the other hand I have seen churches (underwritten) mission be that we have to become larger and have more programs then other churches and never really do Jesus. But we have all seen that. My belief is that God will bless those who are doing His work so that is where I put my trust.
Oh by the way, I have worked in both churches and in the bigger church I was busier doing less ministry then when I was in the smaller church purposely developing relationships that could be consider fruitful. When I stopped doing busy work and got back to focusing on intentional discipling relationships God blessed these relationships and produced fruit in my spiritual life and in the ones of these students.
News on every hour. http://www.bignews.com