I’ve been thinking about heaven and hell a lot lately, thanks to Rob Bell and his new book Love Wins. Have you heard of it? I haven’t read it yet, but this post really isn’t about what he says in the book. It’s more about why I have a hard time jumping into a discussion about hell.
I read somewhere once that theology grows out of autobiography. That is, our life story shapes our theological views. This is true of my position on hell. There was a time when I had no trouble giving my opinion about who was going to hell. I grew up in a church that taught me that all but a very few, very faithful, very obedient Christians were “lost.” We believed that Baptists, Methodists, Pentecostals, Catholics, and every other stripe of so-called “Christians” were facing eternal damnation. We even believed that those who believed everything we did about baptism, communion, and the Holy Spirit, but used a piano when they sang songs to Jesus were also without hope. Our confidence was bolstered by a stack of proof-texts that seemed to validate our points and condemn anyone who disagreed with us. I used to thank God I was born into the “Lord’s Church” and not some other church full of sincere, but mistaken people going to hell.
When I was in college I was exposed to a different way of reading the Bible and therefore a different understanding of the Gospel. One day a gear slipped in my mind and I found myself open to the possibility that those who worshiped with instruments were not going to hell. Before long I had come to the conclusion that the Baptists probably weren’t going to hell either. I eventually flung wide the pearly gates to everyone who called Jesus “Lord” and trusted him for salvation.
Now I look back with shame at how I judged and condemned other Christians who were following the same Jesus I was, many times with greater passion and piety and than I. Once I let go of my certainty that my little group was the only one being saved, I was reticent to pass judgement on anyone else’s eternal destiny. I had been so cocksure and so very wrong. Now I find it hard to mount up and ride against those whose theology is different from mine. My experience has taught me that God is always bigger than we think he is and matters of faith (and the heart) are always more complicated than they appear on paper. No matter how right we think you are, we can still be wrong.
There was a time when I was consumed with the question, “Can a Baptist go to heaven?” That question eventually gave way to “Can a Buddhist be saved?” When you start out with a version of the gospel that was as exclusive as mine, the distance between these two questions are surprisingly close. At least they were in my mind. My answers to these questions are more open and generous than they used to be. If pressed, I can marshal a few proof-texts in support of my positions and opinions. Just as those who disagree with me can marshal theirs. I’m still curious as to what the Bible really says, and doesn’t say, about hell, so I’ll eventually buy Bell’s book and see what he has to say.
My theological autobiography has left me with neither the energy nor the nerve to engage in a good old fashioned “Who’s in and who’s out?” debate. My position, or lack thereof, is open to assault from those so inclined to attack. I’ll be the first to admit that what they’re attacking is not a well-thought out theological position. It is a story. A story of an arrogant, judgmental young man who learned his lesson and is now trying to avoid making the same mistake twice. Yes, I realize I run the risk of making a mistake in the opposite direction. I decided a few years ago that I’d rather God judge me for being to gracious than too judgmental.
Others have learned similar lessons and managed to broaden the boundaries of God’s grace without doing away with them altogether. They’ve still got some fight left in them. My intellectual and emotional reactions to my judgmental religious heritage has led me in a different direction. I have no idea where hell is, how hot it will be, or who all will be in it. Nor do I know how many surprises will be waiting for us in heaven. I just know that these are things I am no longer willing to fight over. I’m not saying everyone will be saved. I’m not saying most will be condemned. I’m just saying I’m completely content to let God sort it all out in the end.
Telling Stories, Asking Questions, Learning Lessons
Hey Wade – I too suffer from Rob Bell fatigue right now. I like Rob, read his books, listen to him sporadically – alot back when it was free. He was very human in his big sitdown interview thing in NY with Linda Miller of Newsweek. Stammered and hemmed and hawed like we all do with the tough questions when asked spontaneously. That’s why I get bothered often by the super hip and cool packaged Rob Bell that appears almost as large as Elvis (pun intended) at times.
I’m a little older than you, so I did not enjoy the more open dialogue in college. In fact, I recall vividly a Freshman Bible class where the prof, in front of 400 people – not all cofC by any stretch – said he believed Baptists were probably baptized for membership into their church moreso than anything else – ouch.
I sincerely believe Jesus is involved in salvation, very much so. Beyond that, it does quickly get into being judgemental in my book to figure things out. Thanks!
Kent–thanks for jumping in. Yes, whatever salvation ends up looking like Jesus will be involved in it. Couldn’t agree more.
I agree that theology is heavily influenced by autobiography … mine’s beginning to be more heavily influenced by pragmatism (as my more recent blog posts probably prove).
I’ve been asking myself what I could say about salvation to someone who hasn’t really heard of Jesus and doesn’t believe … and still not come off like an arrogant, controlling, authoritative-sounding jerk.
So I’ve been trying to dive in to scripture and just say what it says, without saying what John Calvin or Rob Bell or Dante Alghieri or Jonathan Edwards would say. It’s tougher than it sounds to do.
You’re right Keith. It is tough to do.
Love the post. I’ve been down that road myself. I grew up in a baptist church where everyone was going to hell (where are we going? And what’s with this hand basket?) and had the great fortune to vist hundreds of CoC as a matter of employment, where no one ever actually /told/ me I was surely going to hell but I did receive quite a few sympathetic looks.
I went from a strict baptist theology to a doctrine of inclusion, but not without stopping through the land of agnosticism and nearly becoming an outright athiest. Inclusion makes the most sense in my mind, but I really like a bumper sticker that I saw recently: “Militant Agnostic: I don’t know and neither do you.” We need better bumper stickers if were going to be selling any kind of theology!!
I know even mentioning inclusion brings most theists to rage and I hope not to do that here. I only mean to say that we’re all on this road and it’s great to know that even a pastor/former pastor/future pastor is just another human on a road, trying to work these things out.
My favorite part of you comment is “pastor/former pastor/future pastor.”
I don’t know what I am either!
Wow! Good post, Wade.
I’m much older than you, so spent many more years being an extremely judgmental “Christian” when it came to who was saved and who wasn’t and why. Although, by the time I was in my early 30s, I (thank God, truly) I experienced enough of life’s “real” problems that I began to change. Very much so. As you say – for many of us, our theology grows out of autobiography . . . our life story shapes our theological views.
I can’t say that I have a settled view of hell, except that I believe there is one. I do. I think God’s justice requires it. I’m just not sure exactly how it is or who all will be there.
There are three people in particular who have helped me shape my current views on heaven and hell, just within the past six or seven years. The first was Gregory Boyd, in his book “Letters From A Skeptic.” Have any of you guys read that book? If so – what do you think, and if not – you’ve GOT to read it!
The other two guys are very good blogging buddies of mine, Patrick Mead and Greg England. I KNOW Keith reads Patrick’s two blogs. Both are excellent, but as to this subject, especially his Tentpegs blog, where he has been answering questions for over two years that people want to ask of God (as originally posed) and now just want to discuss with Patrick and/or the other commentators. His views on hell are very interesting and I really agree with him on them – as much as anyone. Greg Boyd included.
Greg England is my very BEST blogging friend, and while no longer a cofC minister, gave me a series of CDs of sermons he preached while still preaching in Long Beach, California from about four years ago or so. The series is on death and what lies beyond death, including his deep study on all of the topics that make up such a series. He, too, agrees very much with what Patrick Mead and Greg Boyd have to say and it all makes FAR more sense to me – from my own studies over a lot of years, than anything I could ever find before from anyone else, including the traditions of the churches of Christ and even many other religious groups.
As far as who goes to hell, why, what for and how long – that raises a whole new set of topics to discuss. Seeing as how I’ve already gone on too long here, I’ll stop for now. But, would love to talk with any or all of you further if you’d like. Look up Patrick’s work on hell if you haven’t already read it and if you are interested in Greg England’s CDs, let me know that, too, and I’ll make copies and mail them to you. (Or get Tom to put them on a thumb drive to send you.)
Let me know. You have my email address I know, Wade, and Keith probably does, too. I came here from FB, so y’all can find me there, too, but I like to keep my email address “private.”
Dee
This is a very good and refreshing post. I am right with you and I especially liked your line “I decided a few years ago that I’d rather God judge me for being to gracious than too judgmental.” When I adopted this posture in my own life a very large weight was lifted from my shoulders because I also realized that I no longer had to get be right when it came to matters of faith, instead I was able to trust in the redemptive work of God in Christ.
Grace and Peace,
Rex
Rex- you put it so well. I was once on a steering commitee and the question of “what are we doing here” came up. The consensus was that we had to “get people saved.” What a weight! What a task! The pastor tells a story to this day about the guilt he carries for not “getting my best friend saved before he died” and the anguish he feels for his friends “eternal damnation.”
The result of the steering commitee dialog led me to (obviously without thinking) say “isn’t that a bit presumptious of us?” and needless to say it wasn’t long after that I was “encouraged” to “find another house of worship.” 🙂 Not the first time, not the last.
Wade- I’ve discussed this at length with fellow brethern, and we have talked about the delima a pastor would have with accepting anything but status quo regarding Hell. It’s the whole “slippery slope” issue, and the questions it raises about purpose, or accepting an alternate purpose. I have dear friends who are traveling evangelical missionaries, in their 60s, and I can’t imagine them viewing Hell as anything other than what they view it as: a place for most people to be stuck in for eternity. Id never even imagine bringing it up, because they’re certinly not hurting anyone by devoting 150% of their lives to “getting people saved,” but I do not envy their burden.
The mere fact that you’ve stated (out loud even!) that you don’t have it all figured out is so refreshing. I’ve had my share of pastors who say “it just is this way because God told me so and I’m a pastor and you’re not” when you’ve asked a legitimate question about legitimate passages that simply do not jive with the current theological norm.
Sorry for the rambling. I’ll stop now.
Oh, I forgot the most important thing. Rule One (per Christ) : LOVE!! You want a mission statement for your church? Simple: “LOVE”.
Beyond that, his instructions, in a nutshell, were to “teach” and “baptize”. I don’t know if he meant that literally or not, but I have to think that if we get Rule One down pat, everything will be fine. I don’t think he ever said to “get people saved” or to “keep people out of hell”.
Okay, Really, I’ll shut up now!
I’ve found that with some people everything is a “slippery-slope issue.” This makes it hard to have a conversation about what is true.
A year ago my family buried Grandpa, who I loved tremendously. We wasn’t a churchy guy, but in a lot of ways reminded me of Jesus. Mom asked where Grandpa is – if he was in hell because he wasn’t a churchy-guy.
I don’t like hell. It’s one of those things about Christianity that I don’t like, but I believe in because it seems like it’s part of the deal. That’s basically what I told Mom. I told her that I think Jesus is the way and that sometimes mysterious things happen and that ultimately He gets to decide who gets in and out and that it’s entirely possible that Grandpa is in heaven.
It seems like some of us spend a whole lot of time trying to get people to not go to hell and trying to pull them into Heaven. I don’t really think about heaven and hell a whole lot. They’re too abstract and filled with really bad, commonly held images, and I just don’t think of either one much. I wonder how things would be different if we took the energy spent on pushing and pulling people from and to places, and applied it to knowing Jesus and introducing him to the people around us as though he were a real, live person rather than the dead frog on the dissecting tray we sometimes treat him to be.
I plan on reading Rob’s book. I really like Rob and have been blessed by his ministry. I’m also saddened over this whole thing that’s been started surrounding his book. I think Jesus might be sad about it too.
I do know one thing about hell. I don’t want to go there! And one more thing, I am hopeful that there will be a lot more non COCers in heaven when we get there than just us COCers. It will be too emplty of a place without the rest.
thank you for this.
-former CoC’er
you are welcome. Blessings on your journey.
That sneaky Rob Bell….getting people stirred up…and right when he’s trying sell a book, too!
I completely understand where some are coming from in wanting get out of the old mindset of thinking it’s my job to judge everyone else. I used to be of that mindset too (insert my name in Wade’s post about how he used to think).
But, I think some of us may be talking about two different things. Some are talking about getting out of an old judgmental mindset, i.e., I’m thinking about my poor Baptist neighbor down the street and how sad it is that he doesn’t know he’s going to Hell. Others, though, who have tried to point out some of the inaccuracy of Bell’s book I think are talking about having the right mindset when it comes to looking out at a lost world and the urgent need to reach them with the gospel. If there’s no hell, regardless of what it looks or feels like, then what is the beauty of the gospel? In fact, what’s the big deal with it? Why am I teaching my kids about Jesus and that he is the way and the only way?
Josh Harris posted this good video from David Platt after all the Rob Bell stuff hit about Functional Universalism. This is where, we may not utter the words that say we believe everyone is going to “be okay” in the end, regardless of whether or not they trust in Jesus and call him Lord, but it’s where we more or less live like it. There’s really no difference in functional versus practical Universalism. Just something to think about in all of this discussion before we get too relaxed in not worrying about it at all. Perhaps we should simply be rearranging the angle from which we are concerned with it.
http://www.joshharris.com/2011/03/functional_universalism.php