Here’s a link to an interesting post from Tim Geoffrion that is a good follow up to yesterday’s post. (HT:EV)
One thing that struck me from my post and the comments that have followed so far is the emphasis that I put on intellectual honesty or epistemology. This is certainly a western way of framing the conversation. Perhaps it betrays my tendency to still think of Christianity as a set of beliefs instead of a way of life. From my understanding, Buddhism is to be characterized more as a set of practices than a set of beliefs. There are are basic beliefs behind the practices to be sure, but you don’t enter the Buddhist conversation through the door of belief or epistemology, but through practice.
One of the problems I have with “taste and see” Christianity, even though I’ve preached it countless times, is that every other world religion can make the same offer. There are thousands of satisfied Buddhists, Hindus, and Muslims in the world today. There are plenty of dissatisfied ones as well, but the same can be said for Christianity.
The emotional or spiritual peace experienced in Christianity has its parallels in the other religions. What we call affirmation or validation from the Holy Spirit, they might call enlightenment.
Telling Stories, Asking Questions, Learning Lessons
Good thoughts, Wade. It’s funny because I’ve been feeling what you’ve just expressed but had not stopped to put it into words. I’ve personally wondered why someone raised as a Muslim in a devout Muslim family would ever convert to Christianity. (I’m talking about really trying to see things from their perspective). Looking at Christianity, they will see scriptures containing stories about a talking donkey, every type of animal on earth getting on one giant boat, and God’s supposed children killing whole people groups including women and children. Putting these hard to swallow stories aside, what makes Christianity different from their religion that also tries to make sense of the world, good and evil, and their role here on earth. Why would they choose Christianity if they are happy with the answers their religion offers?
The power is still in preaching and teaching the gospel. The proclamation of the death,burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ will alwauys be the power for salvation.
Sorry…always.
I’m going to disagree with you Ray, and not because I don’t agree that teaching, preaching, and knowing the gospel isn’t important. There is no way to prove something to someone who doesn’t believe you. If someone believes in the Koran, or the teachings of Buddha, but does not believe in the Bible, most Christian teaching becomes moot. However, no one can deny actual life testimony. You can quote Jn 3:16 and they politely nod, but don’t believe it, or you can back it up with real life, for example (this is not my testimony btw), “When my father abandoned our family, I didn’t think I would trust anyone again, but God has shown me he is the only father I need, he saved me, healed me, and if it weren’t for his love, I don’t know where I would be today.” That’s real to everyone, they can’t deny it or they call you a liar.
Of course, in order to have a life changing testimony, you have to let God change your life, and like Wade said, you have to live it. It’s easier to preach it, than to practice what you preach.
Jenni –
I think you are on point. I don’t see how most non-Christians would find it “Good News” that we found a loophole in God’s accounting systems so that we won’t be sent to hell. The real Good News is that God is here, now – active and caring. He can rescue, he can heal, he loves us.
Kent
Ok Wade – this would be a really really fun face to face discussion – but a terrible “email” or “blog comment” discussion unless you wanted to stretch it out for days.
What’s cool – is that when I go for retreat and therapy at the Parish Hermitage – I typically find my way back to peace with Christ, my calling, my past and future through the “practices” of Buhddism and the repentance and love found in the Way of Christ. I’ve benefited alot from the practices of Zen – Yoga – and spiritual disciplines that are discussed by the former Jesuit priest, Anthony Demello.
Spiritual Breathing – Soul Feasting – Meditation – “eating” spiritual phrases – … these practices that are demonstrated in many religions are disciplines that calm the soul/mind/spirit/body and enable one to reach the telos of their practices.
For me – Buhddism and Taoism are the only “eastern” religions that are “Practical” for spiritual development – simply because thier “disciplines” are effective for helping one reach a place of inner strength… BUT aren’t rooted in anything beyond human wisdom and cool thought processes.
I stop the search process when the human intellect becomes the source of the religion.
The epistimology of Buhddism and the eastern world is more based on the gut and learning the nature of being “called” or spoken to in a way other than the 5 senses.
When I spoke of epistimology – I’m combining all of it and saying that with all of the ways that we are capable of “knowing” – Intellectual integrity typically serves me least effectively – Because – I experience great turmoil in my spirit and my walk when I go too far down the “searching” trail in regards to “research…comparison…investigation…”
Paul said: “I longed to know nothing while I was with you but Jesus Christ and him crucified…” “we all posess knowledge, knowlege puffs up, Love builds up.” – his words serve me well because I believe that Christ is the physical demonstration of the Love of God.
I get that and accept that by faith. Because I have accepted this – knowing that there are other options out there competing for my allegiance – I am diving my mind, soul, and spirit into the spiritual identity of “life in Christ.”
A part of this is a genuine love for all people and respect for their ways and practices. I value them and therefore – a part of valuing them and loving them is understanding them and their ways enough that I do not allow a position of pride, arrogance, or superiority to infilterate my attitude toward the other “ways”.
I believe that I have researched enough in order to intellectually know that there are many other options out there that have some pretty cool disciplines and philosophies.
I also understand that there are some very interesting forms and means of knowledge and paths to peace or enlightenment – but there’s nothing out there that even touches the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead as I understand it – there are other “ways” to get “resurrection power” in life and relationships – but there’s nothing that offers the whole package of Christ’s way of life and the kingdom eschatology as Christ does.
What’s fun is practicing the “taste and see” ways of Christ’s strong character and mission – alongside of the “taste and see” ways of eastern spiritual disciplines.
I know there are other religions with resurrected dieties -but I trust the gospel of Christ the most.
By faith – I believe that Christ was raised from the dead and appeared as the Word of God and other historical documents state. Because I believe this historical and spiritual reality – I choose not to entertain other options unless they are able to prove that Christ was not raised from the dead or that resurrection is common outside of Christ.
Personally – I want to be raised from the dead and I want to spend eternity with Jesus Christ as I he is and I’m not interested in Nirvana and I’m not interested in reincarnation and I’m not interested in becoming a star or rotting in the ground forever. I’m also not interested in leaving a forgetable legacy – I’m interested in What Christ offers to those who believe in him and surrender their life to his way.
I can deal with things that aren’t understandable historically and that do not “make sense” today intellectually – because I have rooted my soul in the reality of the resurrection and Way of Christ and feel really great about the reasons I have done so – EVENTHOUGH – at times of emotional lows, I’m susceptable to periods of doubt. Faith has been very difficult for me – but I’m stronger in it now than ever.
I would sooooooooooooooo eat up the opportunity to throw around this kind of stuff with other pastors and true spiritual seekers anyday…
Wow Jeff, you seem to have a lot of insight on this topic. I was raised in a strong Christian home, I took it for granted for years, then I owned it, studied it, and could defend it well, but I always had times when my faith was shaken a bit. That nagging “what if…” that I never had the courage to explore. I liked my religion; I didn’t want to loose it. Then in college enough bad things happened to challenge my faith that “shaken” was an understatement like “breezy” would be for Katrina.
I was a Bible student, 3 years in Greek even.
I decided either God existed and delighted in torturing me, or he didn’t exist and life just generally sucked. I felt like enough people didn’t like me as it was, so I stopped believing in God.
I cried a lot. I discovered life with no God was hopeless, depressing, nothing mattered, and nothing even made sense anymore. Take away God, and then keep following that thinking, eventually everything crumbles. I tried really hard to believe it, but after a few months, I couldn’t anymore. I would say, that’s the Spirit refusing to be suppressed or ignored.
My faith is so much stronger now, there are no cracks or shadows of uncertainty in corners I don’t want to look at. I can face any question, even ones I can’t answer with complete faith that He is sufficient. I have hope and even in tough times when things get hard I have peace, and can honestly trust in him.
Jeff, I really liked your thoughts. The one thing that struck me though was this comment:
“Personally – I want to be raised from the dead and I want to spend eternity with Jesus Christ as I he is and I’m not interested in Nirvana and I’m not interested in reincarnation and I’m not interested in becoming a star or rotting in the ground forever. I’m also not interested in leaving a forgetable legacy – I’m interested in What Christ offers to those who believe in him and surrender their life to his way.”
Maybe not intentionally, but this made it sound like you chose Christianity because of what it offered you and that the other offers came up short. Which begs the question, are you sure everyone wants the same thing you want? Maybe some men are content with receiving 70 virgins when they get to heaven. Christianity doesn’t offer that.
not alot of insight – but enough to make a person wish they’d never opened a can.
Jenni – I’m really glad you kept going.
Wade – I didn’t mention that my belief and personal experiences in the Holy Spirit also takes me beyond what I can intellectually examine or understand. I won’t open that can.
No, not everyone will believe the gospel is the truth but my experince has taught me that all over the world people are responding to the teaching of the gospel. It has been that way since the first century. The inspired word of God instructs us by command and example that the key to salvation is the preaching and teaching of the gospel. It has the power for conversion.
You’re right John – that is how that paragraph could come accross – and personally I don’t care what everyone else wants. I know that sounds harsh – but I’ve come to the place of conviction in my spirit and mind and believe that the resurrection from the dead is the essence of Christianity according to Paul – I Cor 15…
Resurrection from the dead is one aspect of Christianity – and it’s claims – in comparison to the “afterlife” described in other world religions – fits my understanding of the whole picture better than any other “afterlife” doctrines out there that I’ve studied.
Therefore – it’s what I want – it’s the I John 3:2-3 in me – the hope that I long for and anticpate seeing in reality. I long for it and i like it! And John says that – this hope purifies us! That’s a good thing to want to see Jesus and be like him! I’m into that!
Who doesn’t follow a religion partially because of what it has to offer them? Why else would God throw in all of the rewards, promises, and blessings incentives in his story if not for the fact that He wired us to crave the incentives.
Ultimately – we grow to move beyond what it has to offer us alone and we gain a global worldview and see what it has to offer the world and we grow into a deeper faith and relationship rooted in Love for God and his soveriegn will … whatever that is… knowing that it’s truly all about him because everything is about him…
There’s no such thing as altruistic faith… or faith without at least a concern of ‘what’s in this for me’.
Jeff, I agree with everything you’ve said so far. And I don’t find anything wrong with wanting what Christianity has to offer. I’m with you on everything.
My perspective however is this. I’m currently taking a graduate level “Theories of Personality” class for my counseling degree. Each personality theorist we look at attempts to explain the nature of humanity and how one can find purpose in life. After a while, I couldn’t help but start thinking that Christianity sounds a lot like all of the other theorists trying to explain the world to us. Add to them the world’s religions that are attempting to do the same thing.
And just like some people have a hard time accepting Freud’s theories because of his preoccupation with sex, other people might have a hard time swallowing the violent nature of God in the Old Testament. To be sure, there are positive aspects to be found in both Freud’s theories and Christianity, but there is also some difficult ideas to accept as well.
That being said, I think this makes evangelism difficult and I am sympathetic to the person tryng to wrap their mind around the whole narrative of the Christian story.
I’m just now starting to grasp “divine election”, “calling”, “God drawing us”, “God granting repentance”,… into the whole mix.
I can’t wrap my mind around the Christian story and I’ve read about 3000 books on the subject.
Faith is difficult for everyone but the ignorant – and on many levels – we’re all ignorant and brilliant at the same time!
I’m done for the weekend! 🙂
Peace out all you awesome people!
Ok – Wade – I’m sitting here on the front row during our 8:00 worship service and I’m having a ‘revelation’ about this post.
Hebrews 11:3 says “By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen weree not made of things which are visible.”
We don’t have faith because we understand, but we understand because we have faith … Biblical learning takes place in the spirit first, and as we obey the Spirit of God, our spirit communicates it to our minds so we intellectually understand.
But understanding is not required for obedience. A normal Christian is one who obeys the revelations and promptings of the Holy Spirit without understanding. Understanding usually unfolds ini the experience.
As the worshipers are worshiping around me right now – and the 5 tables are set throughout the room – there is both practice, presence, transcendance – and experience taking place. I trust the experience because I believe it’s rooted in truth as I understand it.
I’m understanding something in my spirit that doesn’t make sense in my mind yet though – but God is revealing, I believe.
Perhaps we are discovering the importance of propositional truth. Rather than overreacting to the overemphasis on propositional truth in modernism, and overemphasizing the personal narrative approach of postmodernism (which will lead to subjectivity and relativism in ways that are opposed to Biblical truth), we should realize that the Christian faith is a mixture of propositional truth, everyday practice, divine inspiration, and personal struggle combined with the struggles of a community of faith together. All of these elements coexist to make Christianity what it should be.
Is anyone else here tired of the excessive pendulum swings of Christian history? Will we ever learn to find a balance, rather than being so reactive and overreactive?
As human beings?
No.
(and I’m a woman too, so reactive and overreactive are my right!)